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12/31/2009

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Steve Davis

I appreciate the fact that the cooperative, working together, has a high potential of reaching people. It seems to me, when personalities are promoted, speed bumps and walls are created.

Roger Miracle

Part of the reason for the fracture and divisiveness is the fact that many of our "camps" were personality driven. There may have been some underlying issue that "justified" yet another "camp" but most of it was majoring on things that are just not that important in light of eternity. Instead of the I am of Paul, or Peter it was Jerry, Jack, Bob or Lee. As those men passed off the scene, there were in some cases battles to pick up a piece of the mantle that was left behind, creating more divisions and "camps".

Grant Hignight

Dr. Messer,

Your stated, "The thousands of independent Baptist churches around our country can begin something bigger than one personality or church, and transform our communities and the world with the gospel of Jesus Christ." I agree in principle. However, I would suggest amending your statement by one word. Rather than "can," I respectfully suggest that you replace it with "must."

William Ramage

It depends...truth is timeless, but do we stand on the Word of God or the traditions of men?

Patrick Wraight

I don't see any unifying leadership within independent Baptist circles. This may have more to do with my age and experience than anything else, but it is my observation. I have found that if you don't belong to the right camp, don't answer key questions the right way, or attend the right meetings, you don't fit into certain circles. As a church planter, I found it incredibly frustrating dealing with these camps and have decided to avoid as many of them as I can.

Corey Waters

We are certainly at a crossroad. My heart aches for the independent Baptist movement. I really believe we need to look past preferences and embrace hope. We need to remember it is not about us or our plans; it is about His kingdom! As leaders of this generation we must rise to the challenge and fight for the faith!

Jeffrey Cross

As an independent Baptist I am proud of our heritage and what it represents. One of the major hurdles to overcome, in my opinion, is the fact that there are still so many misguided congregations out there who also call themselves independent Baptists, but are so far out on their beliefs that they are hardly recognizable. They say outlandish things and unfortunately we who are wanting to move forward are lumped in with them and become handicapped by their backward thinking.

Robert Riley

The most applicable definition of the word “movement” as used in the phrase “Independent Baptist Movement” is an organized effort to promote or attain an end. (Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary)

Every legitimate and functional movement begins with an end… a supreme purpose and goal around and toward which all efforts are organized. The most practical example would have to be the Civil Rights Movement. But a movement without an (one) end ceases to be a movement and becomes a collection of movements, each driven by individually desired objectives.
It seems to me there is not so much an “Independent Baptist Movement” as a multiplicity of movements. Quite often evangelism, church-planting, or missions becomes the battle cry or the front for the “movement” but the real end is in actuality, none of the above. The true objective is less about the Great Commission and more about pride and self-advancement.

But the real question is, “Is it possible to redefine an end so paramount that all other objectives and divergent opinions can be set aside for that end?” I can’t wait to read your thoughts in the coming days, Bro.Messer.

David R. Stokes

I am convinced that the "crossroad" was years ago... - David Stokes
http://davidstokes.org

Jim Mead

It is my opinion that the term "Independent Baptist" has been a misnomer for a long time. The thrust of the Independent Movement was that no one exercised any authority over the local church except for the local church; the only problem was that to be an Independent Baptist meant to ascribe to certain parameters of methodology, thus making Independent Baptist not really Independent. The crossroads, as I see it, is for the "Independent Baptists" to allow each church to be, truly, autonomous and independent. Then, and only then, will the churches have the ability to work within the circumstances of each local community experience and fulfill their calling to that local congregation.

Homer McMillan

The independent Baptist movement was a productive, effective and powerful force that God used (and is, in many cases, using) to further the Kingdom of God. It was something God chose to touch and use in a mighty way. However, the culture that arose in the movement over time has been one primarily driven by individual personalities, competitive and unhealthy internal wars and increasingly ineffective missionary and soul-winning efforts.

Personalities will inevitably come forward in God's work; the life of John the Baptist is a case in point. "There was a man sent from God whose name was John." God chose John from his mother, Elizabeth's womb. The critical factor was that it was God who did the choosing, and I believe that John's heart was not so much that God chose him, but rather that God use him. That is why John was able to say, "(Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease." As with John's life, many followers will misinterpret or even misuse the name of the choice servant of God (see Matthew 9:14-17), but the same God who chose John will deal with the inevitable critical spirits and jealousies which arise.

Therefore, it would be wise for God's servants to wait for God to make his choice for our time known. In the mean time, it is imperative that we unify with other leaders and organizations that are theologically sound, methodologically effective and, for Heaven's sake, nice people, so that we can further the cause of Christ as it would please him. This is why I have been very comfortable remaining connected to Trinity Baptist Church and our College, while I have served in a Southern Baptist Church for three years. God will sort this issue out to the glory of Christ.

Will Lyon

thank you for sharing you knowledge and insight on this topic. i look forward to hearing the rest. you're a great encouragement to me.

tim lawlor

Bro. Messer, you've hit on an important and interesting topic. I believe you have defined the problems correctly and I look forward to the rest of your article. tim lawlor

Stephen Parrish

Bro. Messer, I appreciate your initiative in this important matter. I am also grateful for your leadership and the comments that have been made by others.
Here is my perspective: I have been in an Independent Baptist church since I was born and am now 43 years old. We are correct to insist on the autonomy of the local church and to believe that each church is to be self-supporting, self-governing, and self-propagating. However, compared to the SBC, it is my opinion that we are lagging behind in a cooperative effort to reach our world.

When my wife and I were on deputation to go to the mission field, it is truly amazing how many extra-biblical hoops we had to jump through. Whether it had to do with a dress code, or a music code, or even a version code, we had to show that we agreed with each of these issues in most of the Independent Baptist churches in which we candidated. Sure, we believed in the same saving gospel, and the commission that we should go, but it became a political exercise to gain financial support so we could accomplish the mandated commission. My suspicion is that it is next to impossible for an Independent Baptist missionary today to gain support due to the fact that we are so independent that we cannot cooperate. We must come together to accomplish the task that God has set before each of us. My guess is that each of our doctrinal statements are similar enough that we agree on all of the fundamentals of our faith. Why can't these fundamentals be the governing factor of our unity? Shouldn't they be? If we all agree on these doctrinal truths that we all hold dear, we should be able to keep our personal preferences within the bounds of each local church and concentrate on cooperating on reaching our world. This would help our missionaries and communities.

I would also like to add that we should be willing to share database information that connects missionaries with churches and even pastoral candidates with churches that are seeking pastors. We could also use this information to connect people who are moving or are in a different zip code to good churches.

I certainly believe that we need to intertwine our efforts to reach people with the saving gospel of Christ. This would give glory to our Savior and should be done for that reason.

Gabriel Spence

Pastor Messer, as one of many young independent Baptists that recognize there needs to be a change, thank you for taking this stand. I believe our movement is at a point of decision. If there is going to thriving, gospel centered churches for my children to be part of there must be resurgence. We have a choice.

Our choice is essentially between irrelevance or cooperation. The only way for cooperation to occur is if there is a rallying point of doctrine and methodological flexibility.

I do agree that we are way behind the curve on many things including this. God willing we can form a band of brothers that will cooperate on the basis of doctrine and the unity of the gospel and once again see a resurgence of truly independant Baptist churches planting churches and sending missionaries.

Thanks again for taking a stand for many years and continuing to do so for another generation of Baptists.

jonathan case

Pastor Messer,
I want to express my appreciation for your willingness to confront us as "Baptists" with the absolute truth of our inability to put our preferences and opinions aside in the work of the ministry. This topic has been a source of frustration for many for the simple fact that we all desire to see more souls reached, yet a lack of support has discouraged the work effort. In my short time in the ministry, I have already seen, felt and experienced the frustration. The "Independent Baptist Movement" would do well to read a message by C.H. Spurgeon on the topic of "Thus saith the Lord". I honestly believe that we need more Baptists to allow God to be the spokesman of where we take our stands. And if God does not address the topic of controversy, then why would we feel we have the authority to be God? "Independent" in my understanding is to allow churches to reach their communities with the Gospel as God directs. But for us as "Independents" to cast judgement, criticize or even try to manipulate how a church functions is taking the direction of God out of the equation. This is why I feel we must go back to "Thus saith the Lord". It will also prevent personalities from arising, for the only personality followed would be that of God and God alone.
I look forward for the continuation of this article. By God's merciful grace may we see the revival of souls that we all dream to see.

Hunter Phillips

Thank you Pastor Messer for your concern of the direction the Independent Baptist movement is going. My wife and I were saved 28 years ago at an Independent Baptist Church. Over the last 28 years we have been blessed to serve in various ministries and different capacities within the church. As the years have gone by we have seen the world change but not our church. In our view our church did not see the need to change and became more and more self-absorbed. As hard as it was, nine months ago, my wife and I left the only church we had ever been joined with. We are now at a local Southern Baptist church that as an Independent Baptist I had heard mostly negative things about. But I'm happy to say that we have had more opportunities to help others this Christmas season than ever ... food for the food bank which assists hundreds each week, blankets for the local shelter, shoes for a Good News club our church sponsors in a public school, Christmas gifts for teens at the local Children's Home, etc. What a blessing to see the church give to our community in order to reach them for Christ. We have a recovery program on Wednesday nights that is awesome. A Wednesday night men's program that reaches all walks of life and provides an accountability program. The list goes on and on. Independent Baptists are at a crossroad, as you have so aptly defined. Because of my long association to them and my love for the people involved I thank you for having the courage to say what needs to be clearly seen.

Micah Spence

Thank you Pastor Messer for asking some hard questions. These are exciting days for sure. As a pastor's son attending a very traditional Independent Baptist school, I have had exposure to many Baptist pastors and churches all over North America. Preference driven ministries are plenteous, with external standards seem to be the test of fellowship. This is a tragedy and as a whole our movement seems to be slowing and dare I say it, dying. Without a clear shift back to a focus on Jesus and the Gospel, the Independent Baptist movement will continue to slide further into obscurity and ineffectiveness. Are we at a crossroads? I hope so! I'm looking forward to upcoming posts.

David Frye

Pastor Messer,
You hit the nail on the head! We are at a crossroad and the reality is if something doesn't change soon, the younger generations are leaving the Independent Baptist's in droves! They see nothing but majoring on the minor's and very little being done to impact and engage the culture. Missions according to Independent Baptist has clearly been defined in the comments on this blog and I believe is a huge deterent for young people considering missions today. Something must be done if we are to continue reaching our world for Christ in the 21st century. We have to be able to 'think' for ourselves and not be so worried about a backlashing from other brethren who may disagree with our methods. I have had several conversations with other Pastors on this very subject over the last couple of years. Each and every one has said that the generational gap in our circles is growing wider and we are dividing and losing our youth.
I look forward to your future posts on this subject. Thanks for being willing to address what has been ignored in a large part to the detriment of the Kingdom of God.

Greg Mann

Pastor,
I am thankful for the great discussion you have initiated. Some great thoughts have already been shared. I think you are better qualified to speak concerning whether or not we need a leader(s) for our movement, but I would like to address the issue of the intellect of our movement.

Where are the great thinkers of our movement? Most of the great movers for God in the past were giants in the area of intellect. The Reformation, which broke the iron yoke of the established apostate church, was ignited by great minds like Erasmus, Luther, Tyndale, Calvin, and Beza. The father of the modern missionary movement, William Carey, was no intellectual lighweight. The first great awakening in America was sparked by George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards, neither took a backseat to anyone in their academic abilities. The 20th century is still remembered for the great Charles Spurgeon. Spurgeon is largely known for his oratory skills, but these skills were born in a man with unusual intellecual abilities. The early soldiers of the fundamentalist movement of the 20th century were academic giants like Donald Grey Barnhouse and J. Gresham Machen.

These are just a few names who come to mind of men who have left a huge mark on the world for Christ. These men were leaders because they were intellectual giants. They knew how to use their God-given intellectual abilities to move a world for God. When the Scripture speaks of loving God with all of our "heart, mind, and soul," have we forgotten to love God with our mind? Where are the great thinkers in the Independent Baptist movement today? We are ill prepared to deal with post-modernism because of a generations old philosphy of anti-intellectualism and anti-scolarship.

The Independnet Baptist movement needs to produce great thinkers who can engage our culture at every level. At one time in our nation nearly every academic institution was run be Evangelical Christians. How long are we going to go on making fun of scholars instead of producing scholars?

Just a few thoughts...

Blessings to all!

Bert P. Williams

Bro. Tom,
This is an exciting subject and I am glad that you are addressing it. I have some ideas I want to share but will wait until I read some of the additional comments you have on this subject. I find the comments very enlightening and varied.
Praying for you.
Bert P. Williams

Clay Maynard

A huge crossroad we are at in the Independent Baptist movement is in regards to the authority and infallibility of the King James Bible. As much as the word "independent" means to be single in belief and practice, we must not forget that the Independent Baptist movement was started as a separation from the Southern Baptist movement over their fluxuation on this issue, mainly. Most of our Independent Baptist churches and colleges started as King James only, realizing the reality of the promotion of the spirit of Antichrist easily seen in Bible perversions. But now many of these have backed off of their stated convictions, conforming to the tide of modern pressure, and contributing to the "falling away" described in 2 Thessalonians.

I do believe that churches should work together to fulfill the Great Commission, refusing to settle into the muck of splitting doctrinal hairs 14 feet long while a world dies and goes to hell. However, we should not do this while compromising the fundamentals of who are as Independent Baptists that stand on those fundamentals. If compromise is the way to effectively reach this world, than why in the world did we separate from the Southern Baptist convention to begin with?

Larry Goodman

Bro. Messer,

I send this with a heavy heart.

The Independent Baptist MOVEMENT is not at a Crossroad but you are.

Look at the churches listed in" The Sword of The Lord " this is only a small percentage of Independent Baptist.

Please get back to BASICS and build a church with standards concerning holy living, Bible authority ( KJB ).Music, Soul Winning. ect.

Trinity does not need change they need to build on what Dr. Bob Gray spent 40 years fighting for.

He lead them out of the SBC don't take them back into bondage.

A former staff member,
Larry Goodman

Andrew Hale

Pastor Messer,

Like many others, I too have been wrestling with this thought of Local Church philosophy and needing to reach as many as possible with Christ. There are churches around the country that have chosen to stand strong on fundamental doctrines but explore various philosophies and to the astonishment of many, it is working! This does not mean that we reject every conservative notion of our past, as other postings were concerned about. It does mean that we need to be brave enough to honestly consider our current condition and prayerfully deduce where God wants HIS church.

We must flee from foolish traditions while fighting to bring glory to the Father. I look forward to pioneering the future of church leadership knowing that we stand before uncharted waters.

I'm glad you are not afraid to tackle this subject and I look forward to your insight.

Chip McCoy

To All: The Independent Baptist Movement started as a revival, not a movement. A time when men were willing to separate themselves from the world and religion (Ephesians 6:11-13). Having sought our God with all their heart, soul, and strength, (Luke 10:27) they found that the gospel was reaching thousands. Trinity, itself, used to run 60+ busses. I can't tell you how many times I've run into bus -Parent- (now grown) that said they got saved and used to ride a Trinity bus when they were a kid. God blessed the courage and separation of men. It wasn't a movement for movement's sake. It was true worship that caused the gospel to go out into every corner of Northeast Florida. The separation was derived from the heart to remove one's self off the subtle and longsuffering path of apostasy. The Holy Spirit moved and gathered Christ's people together.

However, God's people loved their leaders for their courage and began to misplace their worship. They started to serve the creature more than the creator (Romans 1:25). The leaders eventually began receiving the praise of men. God's people also started to worship the separation itself, making it an idol. Once we did this, then all the heart, soul, and mind were stayed on works and leader worship. (Romans 1:23). The initial revival was perverted to include a few Eve-isms: Remove the word "freely" and add an extra rule just to help God out and make sure we all stay within bounds to "prove" we love God. (Genesis 2:16-17, 3:3). This took a long time to ferment, but its growth was evident as you saw more talk on rules, than you saw in how men were growing and changing in Christ.

Once the church adopted the Eve-ism formula (No freedom and extra works makes God's people a dull ploy), men began to wilt. They were questioning their salvation because they couldn't live up to their taskmasters. Visitation only produced a few godly men that wanted to win souls. The rest are simply inviting people to church because that's all the power they have. I'm not being critical at all here. No, this is simply the evidence of faith-based salvation followed by works-based worship. (Jude 1:19) Here, our God was still calling for us to search the scriptures and see if these things are so. (Acts 17:11)

As soon as men are willing to re-evaluate their positions, they find that they have overshot. They have become a respecter of persons having men's person in admiration (Acts 10:34, Jude 1:16) Immediately, the backdoor attack is injected with, "Do you know why you erred? It is because you took a stand. You are too separated. Is it not evident? A proper church will be filled to the brim with people, but you are so divisive. All of your rules are keeping people away. You are too offensive. And don’t you see the scriptures. The bible doesn’t support your position." - Of course, the bible doesn't support "ALL" of our developed position. But that can be corrected. Then enters intellectualism to seal the deal.

Man's wisdom reasons: It seems rather logical that we are not experiencing God because we are "hard-nosed Independent Baptists". Now we are afraid to declare the Holy Scriptures because we've been burned by misplaced courage in the past. Yes, I agree, we were wrong in adding to God's word and taking away to prove our love for God, so let's correct the sinful part of our separation. We are being tempted to stop taking a stand altogether in hopes of becoming the mega-christian we always wanted to be. In return, we can have a mega-church.

Intellectualism has always fed upon the righteous. One of the beautiful reasons Jesus gave us a little child as an example was to pull down that stronghold. (Matthew 18:2-4) Children are not intellectuals. Intellectuals in themselves are not great. The false-faith of intellectualism is ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth. (II Timothy 3:7, Colossians 2:8) I think here too of the flavor-of-the-month intellectual bible movement. However, God's people, humbled, are great. (Luke 7:38) And godly, diligent men, willing to declare Christ openly, even in the charge of offensiveness, without shame, are great - and are powerful in the word of God. [Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.] Did Luke, a physician, become great for his intellectual prowess in the word of God or because he believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness? Did the intellect of Paul make him great or the chief of sinners? When God called Paul, he separated himself to learn what the Holy Ghost teacheth. (Galatians 1:15-20, I Corinthians 2:13, 2:11-16) then he was throughly furnished (II Timothy 3:16-17) to keep the church in truth (Galatians 2:11,14). Was Sara an intellectual? Was the harlot Rahab? Samson? No, these all died in -Faith-. How do we know about them. Remember, Faith is the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11)

So we are faced with this recap of transformations as I have seen them so far: 1) Worshiping God by his commandment to be separated 2) Worshiping the separation itself and highly spiritual, courageous leaders 3) Becoming guilty for the error and entering into a semi-falling away 4) Becoming intellectual in our reasoning when making the correction and heal our guilty spirit by worshiping the newfound openness 5) Finally, the worshiping of worship where men will have itching ears saying, "speak unto us smooth things" and entertain us. (Isaiah 30:10)

Categorically, the Independent Baptist Movement is transforming into the Re-Dependent Baptist Movement (#4). "Narrow is the way", is not a goal. It is simply the truth. God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2) Should we eliminate the elitist mentality - Oh yeah - big time. Do we have to be apologetic and mum when something is Holy. Nope. When men are free from sin, they sing from their heart on their own. When no one talks about the elephant in the room, they have to be given something to sing about because the elephant has been living at their house all week. Train up a child (even God's child) in the way that he should go. (Proverbs 22:6)

Men who can declare the truth in love are great. I don't correct my son because I love correction, but because I can see into the future and love him through what I'm saving him from. Indeed, there is a time to stand (always) - with fear and trembling considering ourselves lest we also be tempted. (Galatians 6:1; II Corinthians 7:14-16) Sometime's God's words are hard to be heard, but Jesus' words are spirit and they are life. (John 6:60,63) The truth must be declared, BECAUSE, of love. (I John 4:19) The offensive truth must be declared again (Revelation 2:4-5), and love must be evident in kind. (Revelation 3:19) If we will repent to that, we will have the last revival before our Father gives the charge of the gospel back to Israel.

I believe that our church will lead that revival for Florida/Georgia with Pastor in leadership if we all repent together.

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