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02/02/2010

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Gabriel Spence

I wholeheartedly agree!

Will Lyon

Great stuff Pastor! Thank you. I deal with these issues on a daily basis (being on deputation) and I am so thankful for a leader who is willing to openly address them. God bless!

Archie Norman

I am thrilled by the views which you espouse because for many years I have been disallusioned which much of the independent Baptist movement. I remain committed to the core values of fundamentalism, but resist the extreme of separation that many demand on less important issues of music, dress, etc. After 30 years as a Pastor I remain an independent Baptist because of strong doctrine and our commitment to missions and the gospel. My growing concern was that many of our best young men were going to leave because of the extremes but I am convinced many of them will be salvaged if we bind ourselves around the truths you are sharing in these articles. God bless you for your leadership in this area.

Kimberly Wells

Apparently my previous post was misconstrued as an “angry” post. Sorry about that. I am not angry at all, just passionate about some things…especially freedom in Christ. I have found a freedom that is almost as good as salvation itself. I am not the angry, brooding, fundamentalist that I once was and thank God for that! I finally figured out that what I think about what God has called YOU to do, has NOTHING to do with me. Isn’t that great! And further, it does not matter what you think about what God has called me to do because it has nothing to do with you. I am free to love you simply because you exist.

Joel Osteen gets picked on a lot by our crowd. Personally, I have no idea what goes on between God and Joel Osteen. And I don’t need to know. It has nothing to do with me. But I do know that if the sound of his name brings anger, resentment, frustration, criticism, bitterness or any other array of unkind thoughts then I am the one with the problem, not Joel Osteen. I will probably never be a member of his church because of my doctrinal stand on the Bible, but that does not give me the right to judge him or his method of ministry.

I am not a Pastor, nor a church leader so why post anything here? Well, I like to go down to the Corniche (a little walking area bordering the Gulf) and sit watching as hundreds of Muslim men, women and children walk by. I think to myself that it is unlikely that even one of them knows Jesus as Savior, nor has ever been given a Gospel presentation. It is 2010 and hard for me to grasp the idea that the Gospel witness is almost non-existent here. I feel like a broken record talking about it all the time, but what else can I do?

Before me are masses of people heading into eternity without Jesus and so in my own pathetic way I try to witness to them. Mostly by actions, being polite, respectful - some through relationships (I now have 3 Muslim friends), and a lot through prayer. But really I have no idea what I am doing. I study the Quran so I can ask semi-intelligent questions of my Muslim friends, obviously I am learning Arabic so I can eventually communicate but that is a very slow process. There is no blueprint for working with Muslims so I am just trusting God to keep me out of trouble and kind of making it up as I go.

Don’t get me wrong, I am loving it because I know it is what God wants me to do. But when I get on here and read comments like some from part.3 and think about all the energy being wasted on complaints about music, Joel Osteen, or any other issue on the fundamentalist list of “no-no’s” that are preference based and have nothing to do with actual Bible doctrine, I just cringe.

I, for one, am counting on a united effort to figure out how to get around the laws that prohibit even being here without a work visa. Then, substantial funding to enable the employment of full time ministry to Muslims. And finally, a herd of innovative, imaginative missionaries to establish relevant ways to minister to Muslims so that one day we can celebrate the complete Gospel saturation of the Middle East and North Africa. How will that ever happen if one Pastor refuses to work with another Pastor because he is friends with a third Pastor who has a preference that he doesn’t like?

If you are looking for scripture to back this stuff up…start with Romans 6, 7, 8, 9, Gal. 2:20, John 21:18-23, Luke 9:49-50 and every passage that deals with Jesus’ earthly ministry as it pertains to publicans, sinners, winebibbers, prostitutes, adulterers, thieves, liars, beggars, traitors, etc.

Joshua Hamilton

Bro. Messer, you hit the nail on the head when you said "The Holy Spirit ought to be the dominant influence in our local churches and in our efforts to plant churches and fulfill the Great Commission. When our personal opinions on issues apart from core biblical doctrine begin to overshadow our approach to world evangelization, we are at an unhealthy place." Truly, I believe, that the Holy Spirit is what is lacking. And it is our choice, as individuals, that he is lacking. I hope you'll take a moment and reflect on these words by A.W. Tozer: "I ask you, do you want Him to be Lord of your life? That you want His benefits, I know. I take that for granted. But do you want to be possessed by Him? Do you want to hand the keys of your soul over to the Holy Spirit and say, 'Lord, from now on I don't even have a key to my own house. I come and go as Thou tellest me?' Are you willing to give the office of your business establishment, your soul, over to the Lord and say to Jesus, 'You sit in this chair and handle these telephones and boss the staff and be Lord of this outfit?' That is what I mean. Are you sure you want this? Are you sure you desire it? Are you sure that you want your personality to be taken over by One who will expect obedience to the written and living Word? Are you sure that you want your personality to be taken over by One who will not tolerate the self-sins? For instance self love. You can no more have the Holy Ghost and have self-love than you can have purity and impurity at the same moment in the same place. No tolerance of evil, no smiling at crooked jokes, no laughing off things that God hates. The Spirit of God, if He takes over, will bring you into opposition to the world just as Jesus was brought into opposition to it. The world crucified Jesus because they couldn't stand Him! There was something in Him that rebuked them and they hated Him for it and finally crucified Him. The world hates the Holy Ghost as bad as they ever hated Jesus, the One from whom He proceeds. Are you sure, brother? You want His help, yes, you want a lot of His benefits, yes, but are you willing to go with Him in His opposition to the easygoing ways of the world? If you are not, you needn't apply for anything more than you have, because you don't want Him, you only think you do!" (A.W. Tozer, How to be filled with the Holy Spirit, p. 43)
What's missing in the "movement," is what's missing in lives. If the "movement" fails, it is because people have failed. God has the plan and has provided the power. It is we, as individuals, that have failed. I speak this to my own shame. The words written above were personally convicting, but my prayer is that through godly sorrow and repentance I start every day with this goal: I will look for the opportunities that God gives me to fulfill His plan. When I, and all Christians do that, then the "movement" will no longer be about ideology, but about God's plan and purpose. That plan, of course, is the seeking and saving of the lost, baptizing them, and growing them into committed Christians that will do the same.

Greg Mann

The topic at hand is very near and dear to my heart. I have devoted my life as an Independent Baptist to the work of church planting and rallying others to do the same. Over the past couple of years I have seen the real ugly side of the Independent Baptist movement, and it has given me cause for alot of grief and evaluation of where I stand. In the end I am encouraged by God's unfailing purposes. In Gen. 12:1-3 the Lord laid out for his people (including NT believers Gal. 3:6-8), that his ultimate purpose was to bless his people so that they might bless the nations. In Exodus 19 he called out his people as a priesthood - to represent the Living God to the nations - according to Peter nothing has changed for the NT believer, 1 Pet. 2:9. As the Lord brings his purposes to fruition, Rev. 5:9, we can see that he will not fail! The purposes of God laid out in Gen. 12 are brought to victorious consumation in Rev. 5:9. The question is not so much if we can survive as a movement - but whether or not we will have a part in God's ultimate victory. He is going to win, will his victory be partly because of us or in spite of us? If we allow our movement to continue to divide over smaller issues while we lose sight of the ultimate purpose, we will have much to be ashamed of at his coming, 1 Jn. 2:28.

When as a movement we stood with historic fundamentalism we held our heads high and fought for noble causes such as divine inspiration and infallibility of the Scriptures, the Virgin, sinless birth of Christ and his literal, physical resurrection and return. In more recent times we have stained our "honor" in pursuing issues at the expense of God's glory and the salvation of the world's unreached. The Independent Baptist movement can restore her former glory if she will pursue God and his purposes with a passion - working together in Biblical unity as God intended us to do.

Blessings!

Donnie Crosswhite

Dr. Messer,
I personally believe your prognosis to be one hundred percent correct. Having been raised in the Independent Baptist Movement and serving in many of the churches, I believe the devil has had a heyday with individuals touting personal opinions as essential beliefs thereby splintering a group who could have a much broader impact for the cause of Christ. God help us all to wholeheartedly commit to the core biblical doctrines of the Christian faith, realize and accept that we do not always have to agree on the non-essentials, and unify our efforts for His glory. If we do not, I am afraid we may not be at the crossroads but at the jumping off place for a number of those coming behind us.

Gabriel Spence

Thank you Kimberly for your spirited comments on this post and the last. For someone in the front lines of spiritual battle I greatly respect your perspective. Also Archie I appreciate your perspective as someone who has been faithful to Jesus for many years and perceives the need for change.

I really think in this post Pastor Messer quickly got to the heart of the matter. For too long we have cared deeply and fought over issues that don't matter for eternity. We have minimized the blatant and explicit commands of scripture in favor of our pet issues and preferred external styles. I am afraid this has blunted our effectiveness and quenched the Holy Spirit.

The great concern to Jesus is not change - He knows that his purpose will be fulfilled through a vast variety of methods and approaches and leaders. This is evidenced by the Revelation account of the gathering in Heaven of every tribe, tongue and nation.

I believe our pride, stubbornness and fruitlessness is of great concern to our Savior. (Proverbs 6:17, 1 Samuel 15:23, John 15:8.) His concern is for His church and that all men everywhere would be saved. (Luke 19:10) My prayer is that this discussion will inspire many independent Baptists to be more humble, missionally focused and Spirit filled for the cause of the gospel, His glory and our joy.

Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion.

Scott Shubert

Here's a thought. As a Navy Chaplain, I get to work with a broad spectrum of Christians. Some of them are very different than us. Many of them are very much like us just by different names. In my opinion and experience, independent, fundamental baptist churches are really just evangelical non-denominational churches. Perhaps we are wrapped up a little tighter than the average conservative church but we are basically the same theologically. Remember a fundamentalist is someone who holds to the fundamentals of the faith -- The Bible alone is true and the only rule of faith and practice and Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, through grace alone, for the glory of God alone.

There really is no reason we cannot or should not cooperate in missions and evangelism with those who are fundamentalists like us (with or without that title). Heck, I don't even want to be defined by that term because of the baggage that goes with it. Why should we bring unnecessary baggage into someone's consideration of the claims of Christ?

One last thought, if someone is in fellowship with Christ then that person is in fellowship with me. To do otherwise is to lift myself above my Lord.

Thanks Pastor for the fresh approach.

Peace!

Randy Everist

"One last thought, if someone is in fellowship with Christ then that person is in fellowship with me. To do otherwise is to lift myself above my Lord."

Scott, amazing final thought! How dare we elevate our standards for basic fellowship above God's!

J.R. Houck

As a young man studying to be in the ministry the future is a great concern for me. Our growing lack of influence amongst our other Christian brethren and inability to start more churches than those that close there doors is a great cause for concern. Doctrine seems to take a back seat in more of our Independent Baptist Churches to ideological preferences and pseudo psychology. We have become a splintered movement based upon personality conflicts. As one pastor once remarked too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Every body wants to be the guy in charge, but that ignores the reason we are independent God likes diversity if he did not then we would all be the same.

One of the common things I continue to hear is how change is needed; to this end I would agree change is needed. To continue to fight and bicker amongst ourselves only grieves the Holy Spirit and makes us appear childish and foolish to the world. Christ himself said we will be known by how we love each other. Some things should change we need to get back to Biblical Orthodoxy, teaching sound doctrine, and a renewed commitment to the great commission. On the other hand we do not need to change just for the sake of change. Some things should not change; we do not need to become more like the world to reach the world. Caution is needed; every change must be weighed against the Bible to insure that in the process of change we do not lose those things that make us distinctly Christian and Baptist.

Change is inevitable; we can no more prevent it than we can keep the sun from rising. Baptist have rode the waves of change before and have survived. I have no doubt that we will survive this. What concerns me is that some, under good intentions, will change so much that they will seize to be Baptist and only add to the already great number of splintered denominations. As Baptists we need to get past our minor differences and focus on our numerous common beliefs and practices. Change will happen, but only time will tell if it was for good or ill.

Lew Edwards

I have been attending a Fundamental Independent Baptist Church for 24 years and I have for a long time swallowed hook line and sinker all the standards and convictions and rules of seperation. For the last couple of years though I have been slowly letting go of the apron strings I have held on to for so long and have been doing alot of reflection and searching and have been asking my self the question, "why am I and why are we fundamentalists?" Why am I a Baptist? Why are we part of or why do we have a "movement"? Don't get me wrong. I am not quitting my IFB Church and don't plan to any time soon. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is Jesus started a church, not a movement. I realize a need for identity amongst so many false religeons, but is there really a need to give our selves a label or to cling to one passed down to us. No two churches are going to agree 100% on everything IFB or not but every church who agrees that Jesus is Lord and that He is the only way to the Father should be able to cooperate in evangelizing the world regardless of our label. If I had my way the future of Independent Baptists would be to either drop the label or don't allow the label to keep us from teaming up with all of the redeemed in an effort to proclaim the name of Christ to every one.

David Byer

I am very glad that Trinity is a Church that understands Authority was given to serve the Body not control Her. True authority always supplys needs. The wrong use, controls. Thanks, Tom Messer. Dave B. FF

Micah Spence

Excellent, excellent thoughts. I appreciate the perspective from an elder in the faith. Thanks Pastor Messer.

Aaron Turner

It is wonderful to realize the the completion of the Great Commission is not dependent upon Independent Baptists alone.

There is a great big world out there outside of Independent Baptists filled with people who truly love and obey Jesus Christ.

The cause of Christ does not rise or fall on Independent Baptists!

Vinnie

20 years ago I visited Trinity Baptist College as a high school kid. You were the coach of the basketball team. Now you are the "coach" of the church. Thanks for leading Trinity through times of change. Looks like a great Church Life Conference lineup.

David Frye

Pastor Messer,

I'm looking forward to hearing more on this at the Church Life Conference. Thanks for bringing some of the best of the best, who are getting it done, together for this conference. I admire your leadership in thinking outside the box to help our circle grow and be better positioned to reach our world for Christ. I believe we are living in the last days and can't think of a better time for us to address these issues and move forward to win the lost.

Kevin McNichols

Hello Tom - Blessings to you and your ministry. It is imperative that to move forward with our Fathers guidance in each step that we take and all that we do, we must put our individual relationship with Him first. What ever gets our attention will get us. If He is not first, what is first is what we will worship(no matter what that is)The bride of Christ is heading for an awakening and to be awakened we need to be in alignment with Him. That is His will - Blessings

Andrew C. Stringer

Just two questions.
What are the core beliefs that we all need to agree on?
Who chose those beliefs to be core beliefs?
I am just wondering. Some of you may know me. I have been independent Baptist all my life (even before I was born)!
Sure, there are many elements of the independent Baptist movement I don't like. There are people with higher standards than I that judge me. There are also people with lower standards than I that judge me just as harshly.
Truthfully, we are all judged by God and should lay off one another...I know that.
But we all have major differences in preference and even in doctrine sometimes.
I developed my belief system and the resulting standards and preferences when I was relatively young. I haven't changed them much over the years. My attitude toward those that differ has changed, however. I hope I have learned to be more gracious to people both up the ladder and down the ladder from me.
Those questions I asked can only be answered subjectively by each individual for himself. If someone else doesn't hold to the core values I feel comfortable with, then I may withdraw fellowship from that person (without calling him/her names, etc....).

Just a few jumbled thoughts.

Andy OpsCenter-aoc

It is funny how many IFB churches will claim to be "independent" when it is convenient and at the same time will bow down to their association, alumni association, and fellowships over God. There is nothing really independent about most of the American IFB churches today, it has become just another denomination. I will stick with my denomination- it is called the King James Bible and will do my best to bow daily to its Author and His will. Respectfully, aoc out.

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